Matze 🇩🇪🇬🇧 (isle8.uber.space) (hubzilla)

[Solved] Bug?: comment/like/dislike/ on my stream, but not on home-channel of post

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 18:15:36 +0100 last edited: Fri, 09 Nov 2018 22:23:43 +0100

!Hubzilla Support Forum

Sometimes I can comment/like/dislike/..., when I see a post on my stream, but I can't, when I go to the channel, where the post was posted (e.g. goggleplus.online/channel/mark).

Is that intentional, does it depend on the privacy configuration or is it a bug?

If it is intentional: Why would it make sense?

#hubzilla #bug

-------------------------------
Update:
It is no bug.

@M. Dent gave me the answer I was looking for:

#^Bug?: comment/like/dislike/ on my stream, but not on home-channel of post -

Communication-Software

show all 39 comments

Giacomino

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 18:54:38 +0100

probably just because you have not been authenticated on those pages.

Max Kostikov

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 18:56:45 +0100

Likes, dislikes, smiles and few other posting oprions are depends on hub configuration. Hub admin can enable or disable thats why you see such behaviour.

Giacomino

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 19:10:34 +0100

for example I'm in your page and authenticated, I can comment like .....
but I have authentication problems in the Mark page

Matze 🇩🇪🇬🇧 (isle8.uber.space) (hubzilla)

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 19:17:41 +0100 last edited: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 19:19:35 +0100

I know the basics of privacy permission settings, but why can I do these things in #^https://isle8.uber.space/network and not on the exact same posts being on the page of the other channel?

E.g. I liked the following post via #^https://isle8.uber.space/network

cb7f604332cf39 schrieb den folgenden Beitrag Wed, 31 Oct 2018 16:50:34 +0100

!Hubzilla Support Forum
channel move / clone from Hubzilla (Zot5) to Osada (Zot6) - is it already possible?
What's best practice?
- via file?
- or online?
- or still not ready?

Who made already some experiences?

https://hubzilla.eu/channel/cb7f604332cf39/&mid=3321787c23144a28981337373de31f8250ed1d50d5a2bc19b83d322075141cb4@hubzilla.eu

but on

cb7f604332cf39

cb7f604332cf39@hubzilla.eu

https://hubzilla.eu/channel/cb7f604332cf39

I don't get a thumbs up button, although I am authenticated.

Mario Vavti

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 19:25:47 +0100

@Matze do you see your profile image in the panel when visiting @cb7f604332cf39's channel?

If not, authentication failed for some reason and you will not have any permissions there...

Matze 🇩🇪🇬🇧 (isle8.uber.space) (hubzilla)

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 19:33:44 +0100

Yes, I can see it, I'm authenticated, and I've seen the message saying, what protocol was used, but I don't remember the protocol.

In my other example goggleplus.online/channel/mark I was not authenticated automatically.

Matze 🇩🇪🇬🇧 (isle8.uber.space) (hubzilla)

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 19:35:40 +0100 last edited: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 19:36:42 +0100

... and the strange thing is, that I am able to like on #^https://isle8.uber.space/network, as if I was authenticated for a certain post on #^https://isle8.uber.space/network, but not on the post-channel-page page, where the post was posted, although I was authenticated.

Matze 🇩🇪🇬🇧 (isle8.uber.space) (hubzilla)

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 19:38:45 +0100

Do you see the like button on

cb7f604332cf39

cb7f604332cf39@hubzilla.eu

https://hubzilla.eu/channel/cb7f604332cf39
?

cb7f604332cf39

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 19:43:40 +0100

Well,
goggleplus.online is a different server, different story. Guess the server has a problem, cause remote auth does'nt work propper.
@Mark Thomas should have a look into the logfiles, what's going wrong.

Max Kostikov

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 19:47:23 +0100

Do you see the like button on

No.

Matze 🇩🇪🇬🇧 (isle8.uber.space) (hubzilla)

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 19:51:39 +0100

Can you see the like button, when you see one of the posts in your stream ("/network")?

If you are not connected to that channel, maybe you find one of the posts in the public stream.

Max Kostikov

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 20:00:56 +0100

@Matze yes and I wrote you above why so.

Mario Vavti

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 20:07:47 +0100

@Matze i see all buttons and can comment when i visit @cb7f604332cf39's channel.

Mike Macgirvin

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 20:12:39 +0100

Is that intentional, does it depend on the privacy configuration or is it a bug?

It usually depends on the privacy configuration. There is *possibly* a bug but I'm more interested in answering the next question.

If it is intentional: Why would it make sense?

Not everybody has the same privacy expectations or requirements. The problem with a "one size fits all" solution to privacy (as practised by nearly every other service on the internet) is that it isn't valid. Everybody has different needs and requirements. A lack of permission to do something is no more than that person not desiring that you be able to do something with *their* property. It's not your channel. You don't get to decide.

On your channel, you get to decide who can do what. And your decision is final.

Imagine for a moment that you're a hot (for lack of a better word) woman. Many will not show their face in social networks because they get harassed for sex endlessly. Any place on the service that allows somebody to communicate with them is used to try and coerce them into having a "date". Consequently they will often have completely different privacy requirements than you. They need to be able to keep out the riff-raff and dick pics if they want to be able to communicate with their friends and family.

Matze 🇩🇪🇬🇧 (isle8.uber.space) (hubzilla)

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 20:13:05 +0100

OK, Thanks so far.

Do you have a connection or approved connection with this channel?

Mario Vavti

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 20:16:20 +0100

Yes, i am connected wit that channel.

Matze 🇩🇪🇬🇧 (isle8.uber.space) (hubzilla)

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 20:17:11 +0100

@Mike Macgirvin
I agree, and understand the purpose of diversity and control over permissions.

But what I'm confused about, is that I can do something with the SAME post on /network , which I can't do on the channel page of the post (not my channel).

Mario Vavti

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 20:21:47 +0100

I had a look at your profile and see what is going on. You connected with @cb7f604332cf39 but he/she did not (yet) approve your connection (note the no entry sign at the profile image at your connections page). That means you probably do not have permission to like or comment on his posts.

Remains the question why you had permission to do so at your stream...

Giacomino

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 20:23:51 +0100

"But what I'm confused about, is that I can do something with the SAME post on /network , which I can't do on the channel page of the post (not my channel). "
if you are authenticated then yes, there is some problem.
But also you need to see if is a 'forum post' or not, because sometimes the permissions change with respect to the page of the creator of the post.

Mario Vavti

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 20:23:54 +0100

Oh, i see why. You got the message via the @Hubzilla Support Forum support forum which you are connected with.

So, everything works as expected...

cb7f604332cf39

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 20:24:26 +0100

Now I approved the connection.

Matze 🇩🇪🇬🇧 (isle8.uber.space) (hubzilla)

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 20:25:53 +0100

I just did that a few minutes ago, to see, if something changes, but it's still the same.

And as I wrote in my last comment to @Mike Macgirvin :

But what I'm confused about, is that I can do something with the SAME post on /network , which I can't do on the channel page of the post (not my channel).

Matze 🇩🇪🇬🇧 (isle8.uber.space) (hubzilla)

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 20:32:23 +0100 last edited: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 20:39:19 +0100

OK, now it makes a little bit more sense.
I see the like button on @Hubzilla Support Forum.

So:
Is it correct, that the post is stored on @cb7f604332cf39
and the like-click on @Hubzilla Support Forum ?

Matze 🇩🇪🇬🇧 (isle8.uber.space) (hubzilla)

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 20:48:28 +0100

... and posting with "!<channelname>" into e.g. @Hubzilla Support Forum kind of overrides the permissions of the creator of the post, e.g. for liking.

right?

M. Dent

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 20:59:01 +0100

There are 2 separate concepts to keep track of. (1) The post "owner", (2) the post "author".

With normal posts sent by a channel these are typically the same.

The exception to this is with FORUM posts. On a post where a person uses the single !mention format to include a forum that allows them to "Forward to all my contacts using the !mention", things behave a little differently and quickly gets confusing. Some people will actually receive the post directly from the sender (the owner and author will match) and other people will receive the post THROUGH the Forum (the owner will be the Forum, the author will be the author).

So... when a post is received THROUGH a Forum, the owner and the author are different. The FORUM is the owner when a post is received through a forum. The poster is the author when a post is received directly from the author.

Permissions to like/comment/etc, are based on the OWNER of the post (not the author).

Since a FORUM is for discussion, and not every participant is necessarily a "friend"/connection with every other participant - if you have received it through the forum, it is likely you will have the ability to comment/etc. because if you are a member of the forum, and so it is likely you have permission to do so.

But if you go to the original author's page, you may not - especially if you are not one of their connections or if they have restricted who can post on their page.

BUT, because those who receive it through the forum send their replies to the forum and the forum forwards replies to the original author - it is likely that your replies WILL show up on the original author's wall/post on their own hub.

There are some edge cases beyond these that could result in very strange combinations of things, but there are no fool proof ways to easily resolve them.

You may notice that recently, more and more people are using the !!Mention notation. This behaves a little differently (and is easier to make sense of.) If I recall/understand correctly -- on a post tagged with a !!Mention of a forum, the message flows ONLY through the forum - so there really aren't 2 paths to worry about. You may still have the "can't reply on the original author's page, but can reply to the forum page or on my own /network page" problem, but other messy combinations of pathways don't exist (again, that's my recollection, maybe @Mike Macgirvin can confirm/deny it).

Mario Vavti

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 21:00:52 +0100

The items are federated between the hubs and stored on every hub the channel is connected with...

When a post is posted to a forum via bang-mention the forum creates it's own copy of the post with its own permissions...

Matze 🇩🇪🇬🇧 (isle8.uber.space) (hubzilla)

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 21:22:25 +0100

Thanks a lot @M. Dent.
That is exactly, what I was looking for.
great answer.

Matze 🇩🇪🇬🇧 (isle8.uber.space) (hubzilla)

Wed, 31 Oct 2018 21:35:50 +0100 last edited: Wed, 31 Oct 2018 21:50:59 +0100

@cb7f604332cf39
I just recieved your comments. I guess, my server took a bit more time than usual.

Your server is probably fine. @M. Dent gave me the answer I was looking for:

#^Bug?: comment/like/dislike/ on my stream, but not on home-channel of post -

It was my missing understanding for the difference between author and owner.

Antechinus

Thu, 01 Nov 2018 00:13:41 +0100

A different but related question: Let's assume I enable a contact to write directly to my channel page (ie, via "Connections -> Individual Permissions -> Can post on my wall"). What visibility/scope applies to their posts there? Will they be world-readable, or more restricted somehow by default? Who owns those posts? Who can comment on or like them?

Sorry for the broad newbie queries. I'm a little slow. Have only recently twigged that those red 'minus' icons in the connections grid might be related to this

Thanks in advance and feel free to direct me somewhere else if there's a more appropriate forum.

Mike Macgirvin

Thu, 01 Nov 2018 00:56:01 +0100

Let's assume I enable a contact to write directly to my channel page (ie, via "Connections -> Individual Permissions -> Can post on my wall").

What visibility/scope applies to their posts there? Will they be world-readable, or more restricted somehow by default?

They are sent with the default visibility of the channel on whose wall you posted. For many channels this is public, for some it is not. I don't believe the "guest" can change this visibility. (Several people have suggested ways to allow this over the years, but I don't believe they have been implemented. Then again I haven't been closely watching checkins for the last year or so and this may have changed.)

Who owns those posts?

The channel who owns the wall. The guest author *may* be able to delete posts they created.

Who can comment on or like them?

Anybody who is is allowed to comment on posts by the channel whose wall you are posting on.

craggers

Thu, 01 Nov 2018 01:14:08 +0100

Yes. I too wondered what the meaning of the red minus icon was. Still haven't figured it out??

Antechinus

Thu, 01 Nov 2018 07:22:39 +0100 last edited: Thu, 01 Nov 2018 07:24:04 +0100

Thanks for the response, @Mike Macgirvin, and for your patience. That all sounds very sane and reasonable. I'll run a few private tests and explore further. A fantastic infrastructure and culture you've developed here. Kudos and regards.

Antechinus

Thu, 01 Nov 2018 07:29:17 +0100

Thanks for your response @Mike Macgirvin, and for your patience. That all sounds very sane and reasonable. I'll run a few private tests and explore further. A fantastic infrastructure and culture you've developed here. Kudos and regards.

craggers

Thu, 01 Nov 2018 11:33:12 +0100

@Antechinus I can see and respond in the stream but can neither respond or like on your wall.

M. Dent

Thu, 01 Nov 2018 11:58:38 +0100

@craggers and that is as it should be in some circumstances.

M. Dent

Thu, 01 Nov 2018 12:34:35 +0100 last edited: Thu, 01 Nov 2018 12:40:25 +0100

Perhaps this will help.

We have been conditioned to think of a person's wall as that write-on/wipe-off board that college students put on the oustide of their dorm room door. That is to say, it is in a public place and anyone can write on it.

In Hubzilla, a person's "wall" is more like the note board/cork board combination that people put over the desk in their office. You need to be authorized to be in the office to have access to it.

But that isn't a problem because that board is not the only way to communicate as it generally is in other social media contexts. Hubzilla has many ways to create shared public/private/and semi-private shared spaces. So just like you may meet with your coworker in the forum of a meeting room or pass her in the hall and give her a copy of your presentation and she would take it back and pin it on her cork board - or if it's a confidential memo, she might put it in her desk drawer or locked file cabinet, on Hubzilla you can engage with someone in a shared space and they will have traces and artifacts in their private space.

Even if you created the memo or presentation, you would need to go to the shared space (hallway/conference room/whatever) to provide additional notes or make changes unless she gave you access to her office and permission to change or remove items on her cork board or in her file cabinet.

Hubzilla is like her personal secretary who has that permission. So when you stop in the public forum outside her office and give her secretary a note to attach to the presentation on her cork board, her secretary will do it. And people who walk into her office will see it on her cork board (i.e., "wall") but they do not have permission to make changes or additions to it. And neither do you even if you are in her office. Just like you won't see or have access to what she puts in the file cabinet.

Every analogy breaks down - and this one does in the technical details of HOW it happens. But this is a fairly accurate description of the visible effects of message passing in Hubzilla - at least in the circumstances that seem to be the basis of discussion on this thread.

You can see here the inherent privacy and access controls in action that are missing on other social networks. Privacy and access controls that we take for granted to create private and semi-public spaces in our real lives and create boundaries and allow and encourage civilized and respectful behavior. These boundaries and access controls only feel strange online because developers of the platforms we are used to were too lazy or too motivated by profit motive and speed to market or too interested in snooping and themselves having direct access to your data to build them into their platforms. Hubzilla is very different. The whole point and purpose of Hubzilla is to respect your privacy and give you tools and resources to set boundaries.

Other social media sites basically give you a big house with no barriers on the inside. So anyone who gets in the front door sees your bed, your toilet, your fridge, your TV, and everything else. When users demanded , thesome privacysort of privacy, the other platforms brought in those half-walls and partitons that are used on open floor plan office spaces to create "cubicles" - they kind of feel private, but they aren't really.

Hubzilla is a regular house with real barriers and lockable doors even on the inside. Mom can keep the kids out of the bathroom for "alone time" if she wants by locking the door. And just because you were invited into the living room doesn't mean you have direct access to the fridge or the dresser drawers like it does on other platforms.

Giacomino

Thu, 01 Nov 2018 14:24:33 +0100

about what you call the red minus icon

ex.: if a Nazi-racist includes your avatar/channel in your contact list it may seem that you have accepted the friendship.
Thus the red signal was created, to make it clear that friendship is not reciprocal. He can add you, but if you never add that person, the red signal remains.

craggers

Thu, 01 Nov 2018 14:53:26 +0100

Okay but I did not iniatiate the connection with @Antechinus . He did and I received a notice but I did not get to approve or reject the invitation. It was done automatically and I was surprised because I thought when you went to his profile I would see the button to either approve or not. I only noticed 2 days later he had been added as a connection. To be on the safe side, I guess I'll try to remove him on my Manage your Connections page.

Antechinus

Thu, 01 Nov 2018 15:07:13 +0100

Oh, of course!
It's a connection-request pending confirmation.
I am a public fool

Thanks very much for clearing that up.